In the last couple months, we’ve seen gender in quilting discussed in several places, and after following the conversations I feel a need to add my voice.
I’ll attempt to pull some threads together for you here (and these are just the ones I know of – please send me others you might think are important to this conversation and I’ll add them):
- Abby Glassenberg interviewed Luke Haynes on her podcast and asked him about gender in quilting
- Luke Haynes wrote about being asked “the gender question”
- Stephanie Boon wrote about why the gender question matters to her
- Stephanie Forsyth added her thoughts about men and quilting
- Molli Sparkles added his response (yes, his… Molli is the quilting persona of Joshua Helms)
And so here’s mine (and in just to clear up any confusion that my name, Sam, might generate, I am a white woman):
WE NEED TO KEEP HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.
Women have not achieved equality. So many people think the fight was fought and won in the 70s and 80s, but it is not won, at all. We still, on average, make around 75% of male salaries. Our bodies are governed by restrictive laws made in general by white men. Western politics are driven mostly by white men. Western religions are driven mostly by white men.
OUR HISTORIES ARE BEING MOSTLY DICTATED AND FRAMED BY WHITE MEN
This country (USA) came closer to passing a constitutional amendment banning flag burning than it did the Equal Rights Amendment, an amendment that says were are to be treated equally, all men and women, all races and creeds. If you add the number of women in this country (all races) and all the non-white men, their majority far outweighs the white men, yet the power of the white male politics kept this amendment from passing. Think about it. Flag burning might be provocative, but it’s about an inanimate object, and ultimately about freedom of speech (which is protected). The ERA is about PEOPLE. It’s about our fellow humans. And it failed.
If we, as women, do not keep speaking up when we disagree our histories will be dictated and defined by voices that are not OURS. And we need the discourse, the discussions, the passionately fed-up rants and the well-argued dissenting opinions. We need ALL of these conversations to help broaden EVERYONE’S views, and to expose people to ideas they’ve never considered.
Both men and women need to stop trying to silence each other when they disagree, and instead, welcome the conversation. And men, you need to stop using the “you’re not being nice” style of shaming language to shut women up. Here’s an excerpt of a conversation that I endured on Facebook a year ago, when a man jumped into a conversation a female friend and I were having about an exhibition at the Craft and Folk Art Museum of quilts made by men (emphasis mine):
Man: Male quilters are a deviation from the norm, and not-normal grabs more attention. That said these men all are talented and deserve a show, at this museum or elsewhere. Taking more than that from this exhibit is, to me, not fair and doesn’t give the artists in this exhibit the benefit of the doubt.
Me: I concur that these men are talented. I concur that their “deviation from the norm” makes it easy to show their work as a collective. All that said, I get to have my opinion, as you obviously do yours. There is no way an exhibition of the fiber works of men will not create discussion in this industry. And for you to attempt to silence my opinion by telling me I’m not being “nice” by having any opinion that isn’t a flat out politically correct “rah, rah” cheer isn’t giving me the benefit of the doubt either. I will attempt to see this show. I will form opinions about the work and its makers, and about the politics of it (because you can’t discuss gender without politics, especially in fiber). And I will use my intellect and hard fought MFA (in fiber) to have a well reasoned opinion about it that is MINE. Dude, I’m not trying to pick a fight, but don’t tell me how I’m supposed to think about this thing. Women are ALWAYS being hold how to frame stuff. If you think there could be an all male show without discourse, you’re being naive.
Man: I’m not exactly sure how I was trying to silence you. The second comment on this thread is basically saying the artists in this exhibit are getting this attention because they have a penis [note, this was a comment made by the friend that sent me the article]. My first comment was me trying to be slightly funny-hurt. There’s a big difference between having a discussion and me trying to silence you. And if you can’t see that distinction then you’re being to (sic) reactive.
Me: I am reacting to “Taking more than that from this exhibit is, to me, not fair and doesn’t give the artists in this exhibit the benefit of the doubt.” Which I interpret as “So if you take more than that, it’s not fair to the guys, which isn’t nice, so be fair.” Which isn’t really encouraging me to have any discussion that doesn’t align with the “not fair” part.
So first I’m not being fair (or nice) and then when I defend my right to have an opinion, I’m being reactive. And the thing is, I don’t think this man could see how his language is silencing… it’s so prevalent in our culture that it just isn’t recognized, and it IS the product of privilege. This goes on EVERY DAY in the lives of most women. And often at the hands of other women, which NEEDS TO STOP TOO.
So in the spirit of not being silent, here are my responses to some of the ideas that are in the links above:
- On men being tired of being treated like minorities in the quilting world: Yes, you might be presumed to be the husband in a quilt store. I’m tempted to say, “Get over it. Welcome to the Land of Having Assumptions Made About You Based on Your Gender.” But not because I want men to “feel my pain” (wouldn’t it be lovely if this pain ceased to exist for ALL), but because I want men to understand how it feels, and thereby be galvanized to be at the forefront of teaching other men not to make those types of assumptions about women. And to the women in fabric stores – knock it off; teach more inclusivity by example.
- On men reacting to (whining about?) negative comment/commentary: Men need to get past the idea that their privilege dictates everyone agree with them, especially women. And I hope the men recognize the unequal safety of their pulpits… they don’t risk the death, mutilation, and rape threats women get as standard business practice just for speaking their opinions. And these threats silence us… we’re so scared to risk our safety, families, and businesses that we sit here mutely.
- On men getting professional opportunities: In the professional realm where women are dominant, like quilting, men get more opportunities because they stand out. When white men are the minority, the white male privilege upends the usual paradigm of minorities NOT getting increased professional opportunities. As Viola Davis said in her beautiful Emmy acceptance speech, “The only thing that separates women of color from anyone else is opportunity. You cannot win an Emmy for roles that are simply not there.” Women can’t get the exhibition opportunities that are not offered to them. What would happen if men asked the venue to stop making their exhibitions based on gender parity, and refused to participate unless the show was open to all? And venues: seek to make these shows of parity.
- On the intersection of fine art and craft: The fine art world is also run by a white male establishment. When fine art engages craft, the first rules of engagement follow that traditional structure, one of white male power which marginalizes women and people of color, and pays them poorly. The Guerrillla Girls have been illuminating this disparity for years, most recently on Stephen Colbert’s show. We still need to keep fighting it.
- On the title of the “No Girls Allowed” quilt exhibition coming up: Really? That title? I know this language was considered funny and cute in the 1940s with Spanky and Our Gang, but really? There is a LOT of language from that time we no longer consider acceptable. Why is this OK, and why is protesting about it not OK? The men might call their quilting group that (“But it’s tongue in cheek, it’s just a joke!”) but why on earth is the museum perpetuating it? We are not girls, we are women. (And as an aside, do we ever suffer for there not being a female word equivalent to “guy.” I made this art about that.)
- On men writing what they think is the history of women in quilting: Do your research, dammit. Before you carpetbag in with your ideas, study our history, and use us as primary resources. And be very careful… your privilege as a man will make you blind to nuances that are daily freight for women. The same goes for women: as a white woman, I think it naively presumptuous to assume I understand half of what it means to be a woman of color in quilting.
- On women being fairly compensated (compared to men): While the people doing the paying need to knock it off, women also need to step it up. We need to not wait politely to be handed our opportunities, but we need to go out there and ask for them, MAKE them, and negotiate to be paid well for them. We need to take a leaf out of Jennifer Lawrence’s book when she found out she was underpaid:
“When the Sony hack happened and I found out how much less I was being paid than the lucky people with dicks, I didn’t get mad at Sony. I got mad at myself. I failed as a negotiator because I gave up early.”
- On being nice women: We have been so cultured to play nice and fair. SO cultured. And we are losing ground because of it. Back to Jennifer Lawrence again (really, just go read the whole thing):
“But if I’m honest with myself, I would be lying if I didn’t say there was an element of wanting to be liked that influenced my decision to close the deal without a real fight. I didn’t want to seem “difficult” or “spoiled.” At the time, that seemed like a fine idea, until I saw the payroll on the Internet and realized every man I was working with definitely didn’t worry about being “difficult” or “spoiled.” This could be a young-person thing. It could be a personality thing. I’m sure it’s both. But this is an element of my personality that I’ve been working against for years, and based on the statistics, I don’t think I’m the only woman with this issue. Are we socially conditioned to behave this way? We’ve only been able to vote for what, 90 years? I’m seriously asking… Could there still be a lingering habit of trying to express our opinions in a certain way that doesn’t “offend” or “scare” men?
Absolutely YES, Ms. Lawrence. We are still tip-toeing.
We still have a long way to go. Women still need to do more for our own equality, and men need to help out by advocating for us, too. WE NEED TO KEEP HAVING THIS CONVERSATION until the points are no longer true.
What an awesome essay. I haven’t yet followed all the links you provided to the sources for your comments, but I SO agree with you on this topic not only regarding the quilt world, but just the world in general. I do not quilt for competition or shows so that part doesn’t actually apply to me, but everything else does. I am a 67 year old white woman and believe me, I have seen it ALL! From rape and being condescended to every day of your life, and everything in between. I know very few middle class women like myself who haven’t experienced sexual assault and employment discrimination in some way. We need to keep talking about this.
Thank you Claudia! You are so right about the assaults… I don’t think I know a single woman who hasn’t been.
I’ve been following most of this latest gender discussion on quilting with interest. What I don’t like to see is the men who don’t acknowledge that they’re given an incredible advantage for being a ‘novelty’ in the quilting world that lets them advance very quickly. I listened to another podcast of Abby Glassenberg’s that had Rob Appell of Man Sewing on. Rob had a great point of view in that he knows that he’s had a fantastic advantage over women quilters. But what I appreciated is that he says it and this makes him feel like he has an obligation to try his hardest to improve his quilting skills, to be worthy of getting such a head start.
This is all similar to the discussion that my husband and I have about women in the field of auto racing. Since they’re a novelty as well, they get a lot of media attention regardless of their skill. And they’re always asked about being female in a male dominated sport. It’s just an accepted part of that so why do the male quilters get upset about being asked the same question?
I think there might be an element of discomfort in not being able to control the conversation (as has been their right in times of yore)
I love this post, so well written and thought out. I am proud of you and proud to be a woman. I am guilty of not speaking out, worrying about being nice. I stand with you. I welcome everyone but we do need parity. I think my femininity is a reason I so relate and support Black Lives Matter and change in gun laws too. I always felt the discrimination and second class attitude towards woman and minorities but never more then when I moved from NJ to TX. And now ageism too. But back to quilting. Get real, no girls allowed? Really? Shame on you (quilting world). We have a tendency as woman to welcome and nurture all. We need that extended to us too.
Thank you Denise!
Hi Sam! Thank you for the blog.
I’m thankful for this discussion. It got me to think about what male quiltmakers are really like. Generally speaking, they are a bunch of big-hearted individuals whose rewards are not fame or money. Sound familiar?
Quiltmakers are so thoughtful, kind and generous, and our community is remarkably inclusive. Like any community, there are people who are on their own paths. It is not fair to say they represent the whole community, in my opinion.
Being a student of quilt history is a great way to honor and inform what we do. The deeper we go, the more we are discovering how women and men had constant, evolving roles in quiltmaking, and they were essential to one another.
The role of women was clear and direct. They made quilts. Quiltmaking was their creative space. The role of men was less direct. They did not make a lot of quilts, but they facilitated textile production and played other supporting roles.
Quilt history offers a broad context for evaluating those roles. Certainly, wars were fought over taxed goods, cotton and slavery. I give historians credit for calling quiltmaking the longest unbroken tradition of women’s creative expression in America. Not to deny the growing pains we have today, but I also give men a small amount of credit for not encroaching on that creative space for so long.
Quiltmaking could not have occurred in colonial America without women and men working together. The lines may have blurred since then, but women and men continue to work together in a variety of ways to make quilts. Quiltmaking sets a tremendous example for all other industries when it comes to women’s leadership and accomplishment. The women in our industry are excellent leaders and will continue to be, even if men become involved with making quilts.
Kudos!
Bill – I always appreciate your thoughts, and your willingness to educate yourself about your passions. Thank you for your thoughtful words!
Bill, Good contribution. But have you observed that the different “contributions” to the (historical) textile world you named can be divided into paying and non-paying? And that the only one in which women dominated was the non-paying role? Hmmmm…whyz that ya suppose?
Neame
Actually, Naeme, I have not. That’s your world view. Not mine. Good luck with it, though.
BOOM. Thank you, Sam! I knew you’d be good for a post on this subject 🙂
The most frustrating part of this discussion to me is some of the male quilters who claim to be allies, but yet don’t speak up to support women. “Hey, don’t look at me! It’s not ME that’s silencing you,” they say; yet they benefit in terms of attention and prestige. They eat the piece of the pie that wasn’t offered to us… and it’s okay, they say, because a) they deserve it as much as we do, even though we are offered 77% of the pie they receive, and b) they didn’t deny it to us in the first place.
I completely respect Molli and his involvement in the WASWI movement. He’s advocated strongly on behalf of fair pay for artistic work in ways that benefit men and women. I’m disappointed in his “dick” response because I would have liked to see his voice on our side of the debate; his voice would have been a strong presence calling out Luke about the low wages he pays his studio workers or the fact that they’re not provided attribution. I would have appreciated Luke’s voice saying, as you suggest, “Hey, let’s have a show inclusive of everyone based on the inspiring work of Person X or Architectural Principle Z.” Yet somehow that doesn’t happen. You can’t use your privilege as a novelty and then get pissed when people get pissed. It doesn’t work that way.
It is also so tiring — so, so, so tiring — to have to keep explaining privilege to people who just don’t understand it. Usually I love jumping in with blog posts on topics such as these, but this time I’m taking a pass and stirring shit up in the comment sections. Your voice (and time and patience in keeping up the good fight) is, as always, appreciated. 🙂
Also, about history and context: SO IMPORTANT, and thank you for bringing that up. No one is keeping men out of quilting. No one doesn’t want them here. But male quilters need to understand the complexity and the politics inherent in women’s spaces, as well as the historical necessity of women’s spaces in the first place. They need to respect the places they inhabit.To extend the “door” metaphor, it’s generally not considered good manners to walk through a door (having opened it with your genitalia or not) and then lecture everyone else in the room and crap all over the carpet.
Thank you! And Molli is DEFINITELY an ally!
First of all, can I just give you a big HUGE thank you for posting publicly about this? I know firsthand that it puts a potential target on your back. I had many women email me privately that they support me and my post, but don’t want to do it publicly for fear of being attacked. I want to thank you for touching on the fact that white men have essentially dictated our histories – it was an aspect that I guess I realized but had not really truly realized the depth of it.
I recently finished reading Native Son, which has also shed some light for me on what seems like stupid things, like apologizing for basically taking up space (I want to get on the elevator at the same time as someone, and I apologize. I am in line in front of a guy? I apologize.) When I start realizing the stuff I’m apologizing for, I’m astonished. :/
My post was, as so many have pointed out to me, written with an angry tone. I have never denied that. In fact, part of my point is that we have the RIGHT to be angry, and part of the anger is the simple fact we are TOLD not to be angry.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, for continuing and putting more out there about this. It truly isn’t just a about quilting, it’s a larger issue. But people have to start making changing where they are and where they live, and we live in the quilt world. So that is where I have to try and impart change towards equality. But first we need to make people acknowledge the quiet and not so quiet ways in which we as women, are kept down by others and by ourself.
Thank you Sam! 🙂
Stephanie – thank you! And I have no issues whatsoever with your post or your tone. You have every right to talk about the things that piss you off, and every right to choose the tone in which you do it. It has galvanized some great discussion – this is not a simple topic in the least, so it needs many voices to discuss the myriad facets.
I’m REALLY sorry that our women are not speaking up. REALLY sorry. I hope I don’t lose business over taking a stand, but really, those people are not my customers anyway. We need to get to a point where not speaking up is the aberration, where men not having our back is an aberration. I’m up for the fight… I remember the bra burning stuff from my childhood, and as a student of the history of fiber art I know what has come before me. I’m taking my place in the lineage, and I will do my best to forward it.
Thanks, Sam. As someone who was paid markedly less than my male peers for my whole career, I’m not very interested in hurt feelings about treatment in quilt stores. Rather than getting your boxers in a twist, explain what you need and/or take your business elsewhere. Of course that doesn’t excuse poor treatment by quilt shop owners or employees, and they should stop it NOW.
Men in quilting… I welcome them in the shops and guilds and shows and blogs. I want them there if they want to be there. My husband has always helped with my projects and is slowly becoming even more involved. But “no girls allowed” is childish, regardless of the context. I haven’t been a “girl” since I graduated from high school, and that’s a while ago! It’s one more way to infantilize women, keeping them powerless. NOT appropriate. I object less to the men-only show than I do to the title of it.
And finally, a comment about comments. I haven’t read all the posts you’ve linked. I did read Stephanie F’s, and there were a lot of vile comments lodged. Disgusting, really. One argued that it is women’s fault that they are powerless (less power), a great way to blame the victim. Another came back several times to argue in long, heated paragraphs, making inferences about what Stephanie said and meant that were well beyond what she actually said. In truth it says much more about the commenters than it does anything to advance their argument. And I said just that to one of them. Your Facebook quote reminds me of just that, being shushed and shamed to try to get you to play “nice.”
Now going beyond my intention for comment, it reminds me of a piece I read on vox.com today about women in technology and the challenges they face. One said that in performance reviews, women are charged with being either too reticent or too bossy, nothing in between. No way to win that game…
Thanks again.
There really is no reason for the vile comments, and really, you just have to “bless their hearts” for them. There are plenty of eloquent ways to make a point. And I’m utterly sick an tired of reading threats to women on line. Our safety in person is tenuous at best, so the threats are very real to us (it’s not just sticks and stones). Enough.
Great post, Sam! Keep it up…
Thank you!
THIS!! Geez. I have been thinking about this discussion all day. Thank you for presenting a fuller picture here. Some of the comments on the blog posts involved are so demeaning and harsh.
Thank you Melanie!
Bill, I agree with Stephie. Your responses have been based in respect and encouragement of our chosen medium.
I was very disappointed in a lot of the responses from the men. They did not represent me or the community.
Bill, I’d just like to say that I never considered your voice to be anything other than ‘one of ours’, one of the community. Your passion and excitement for the subject shines through and I hope I can learn a lot from you. Good to meet you!
What ^^ she said!
reblogged http://wp.me/p3L3zY-1aS
Thank you!
Sam – What a wonderful post! I think this has been emotionally draining on everyone, so thank you for your clear head and educated thoughts. There’s so much to say, and I wish I could stand in a room with so many of the audience to elucidate my feelings on so many topics.
Just briefly though, the comments have really gotten out of hand. There are so many people (sadly, too many of them men) that have provided vicious and malicious attacks to the originating bloggers and to others commenters. This does nothing to help the discussion, and I’m sorry that I (in any way) inspired this type of behaviour. I hope you and readers know that even though we are all men, we have wildly different views on this and all topics.
Many men don’t know about privilege. They don’t know what it is, or that it exists. They are ignorant to it. I consider myself pretty educated and modern, and yet, yes, I forget I have privilege. The world I have created for myself (and Mr. Sparkles often reprimands me for it) is full of sparkles and rainbows. I tend to think the best of people, and that everyone is treated equally and with the same opportunity. But the reality is, they (e.g. women or other groups) do not. So this conversation has reminded me of that, and I promise to do better to recognise it.
The title of our quilting bee, “No Girls Allowed,” my feelings on this are evolving. I’m going to speak to the other members about it, and I hope they feel the same way. I want us to be respected for our choices to be allies, not scorned for choosing to be divisive (even as innocently as it may have started).
And I think Lauren Lang’s comment is right. I reacted with my post, and couldn’t see the forest for the trees. While I still stand by a lot of what I said, the angry tone of Stephanie’s blog post made me angry at being part of a generalisation that I have tried so hard (my entire life) not to be a part of. But yet, I see now that anger is an allowed emotion, of course it is! Especially in a situation of such disparity here. No one has come to my blog and complained about my anger, and yet they’ve done so repeatedly at Stephanie’s. That is unfair and unequal treatment that I now see as privilege. So while I still think Stephanie’s blog posts could have been framed differently to achieve greater impact, she shouldn’t be crucified because of any emotive qualities they contain!
Jennifer Lawrence is amazing. One of the best things to happen to Hollywood in recent memory.
You done made me eyes leak! Lol Thank you!
#likeagirl is such an empowering message and movement, so maybe the men can follow the example. Instead of “No Girls Allowed” maybe it could be “Quilt Like a Guy”
Bill, I understand the point of “like a girl.” But it’s time to use adult words for adults. I am not a girl and haven’t been one for a really long time. I do not think of you or other adult males as “boys.” It is not respectful. So yes, quilt like a guy. But “like a girl” is not empowering, it is still a disrespectful message about gender.
I thought the campaign was meant to empower girls, but maybe I was mistaken.
The other question I had was regarding pay, and this question is specific to the quilt industry. If a man and a woman each write the same length article for one of our magazines, does the man get paid more? If so, where is that information found? I’ve gottem paid for some things recently, but have no idea how my pay compared to anyone else.
As I said… not having a “guy” equivalent makes it hard! “Gal”? Not really!
Yes, I understood your intention, and if we ARE talking about GIRLS, then I’m all in favor. But when we are talking about women, let’s use grown-up words. Thanks for your voice on this. I do appreciate it.
#likesgirl is a campaign that is meant to empower girls. We use it with my six year old. For so many years, like a girl was derogatory. “You throw like a girl. You run like a girl.” The campaign was meant to change the narrative. When my daughter rides her bike wild and free, she does it like a girl. I am guessing bill just meant the no girls allowed quilt group could take a page from the campaign, and change the group name from exclusive/negative to something positive.
Yes, that is what I meant.
I like this idea. I know a lot of the men of the group. My guess is the name was just meant to be funny, but it’s always rubbed me the wrong way.
I don’t have a problem with “No Girls Allowed.” It is meant to be tongue in cheek and I see the humor in it. Granted, I understand where some women can find it offensive. But, until women cease going to the “little girls room,” or get together with “girl friends” to have a “girls night out” and engage in “girl talk’; then I’m going to hold the position that the title of that show is fine.
I appreciate this, thank you.
Thank you, Molli. Very well said.
Molli – I adore you, and I think you are one of our best allies. And as I said to Stephanie – your tone (and hers) isn’t a problem with me at all. We need tone sometimes to rise above the noise, and I appreciate that you are writing from YOUR point of view, which I of course need to be better educated about (I’m a woman… I have no idea what it’s like to navigate the world in your sparkly pumps). Keep up what you do for us – please. And yes, those comments are awful. They are unfortunately how it goes for women… and I would ask kindly of you, if you feel moved to, it would help us if more guys told THOSE guys to stop it. Love and hugs, looking forward to seeing you next month.
Just so you know, several of us guys have commented to the other fellas in the men’s quilt group on Facebook, expressing our dismay and telling them to chill the eff out. Personally, I told them they needed to be gentlemen.
I’m really glad to hear this. Thanks for the report. 😉
Thank you Bill! All help appreciated!
Thank you.
Thank you, Bill! That’s wonderful! 🙂
I appreciate that they were called out on this. Thank you. Doubly thanks, if it’s the person I’m thinking of. :/
Hi Sam, I was directed to this post by Molli Sparkles and I’m really glad I found a voice of reason before I head off to bed! I wrote my original post well over a month ago now and sat on it for two weeks before I published it, for fear of the name-calling and backlash I expected – and then duly received. The suggestion I kill myself was the icing on the cake. The way you’ve laid out your responses thoughtfully, clearly and succinctly reiterates what many of us feel and have left unsaid for too long.
Something I’ve noticed in many of the comments is a very strong ‘western-centric’ viewpoint, which I guess is to be expected, but it intrigues me that if there are women that believe we have equality here in the west (and obviously I wholeheartedly disagree), you’d think they’d at least lend their voices to less fortunate women elsewhere in the world. No one is denying that men play (and have played) a valuable role in quilting and textiles around the world. No one is saying that this shouldn’t be the case. What we’re arguing for is parity and not to have this rich history of ours (men and women) subsumed by a handful of hypocritical male quilters with big egos, helped along by women themselves. One of the Guerrilla Girls most powerful works, for me, simply asked “Do women have to be naked to get into the Met. Museum?”. When you figure out the answer to that one (it’ll take you about 2 seconds), there really isn’t much else to be said.
No objections, as long as we’re not making a jump from a situation involving a few individuals to a community-wide epidemic.
I hear you Bill. But really… when the majority of the hateful commentary on the other blogs is left by men, it does rather color y’all with one brush, and especially to those who are just reacting rather than deeply reading (which could be a full time job at this point!).
The men who are not involved in this discussion are the ones I find most representative of men who quilt. Their work is strong, they are mature and humble, they are gentlemen, and they would not intentionally make disparaging remarks about women. We may not hear from them in this forum, but I think we’ll hear more about them. Maybe they’ll even have better answers to the gender question.
By the way Sandi from Crafty Planner asked if people made other assumptions about me when we were doing the podcast. I said maybe, but I didn’t care, and we both had a good, hearty laugh. I love that she asked, it didn’t bother me at all, and it gave me a chance to emphasize just how focused on work I am.
Bill, those men that are not involved in the discussion are exactly who we NEED to enter the conversation, as an example to the ilk we are struggling against. We need the men who are not disparaging of women, to publicly call out those that are. As much as it frustrates me that we women can’t fix this on our own, fixing it is more important that the pride of doing it alone. After all, once we are equal, we will be working together anyways!
Hi Stephie! I write about the western-centric viewpoint because its the one I live in (and FYI, you might not know this, but I’m British by birth!). I’m appalled at the hateful comments. It is unfortunately an all to common mess that comes at us, and it is very silencing. I also don’t know why women don’t advocate better for each other – I know that people are afraid for their businesses, not to mention their safety. What a world it would be if it wasn’t this way!
Morning Sam! We both have an MA in fine art too, woohoo! Being educated in this way means we ask questions that go beyond ‘ooh that’s pretty!’ and I’m not apologising for that. A good artist creates a piece of artwork to open a dialogue with the viewer: fine art is a *language* and language, surely, is about communication. Being silenced by hateful comments, speaks volumes about people that prefer to oppress others rather than engage in thoughtful debate and discussion. I don’t have any problem with people disagreeing with me, or trying to persuade me to their argument, as I do to mine, but some of the commenters on our posts just beggars belief. I hope this is a good start to your week. I plan to come back regularly (I read your articles about remuneration some time ago and thought they were particularly well put forward), so good to meet you!
Thank you for your post. You have captured many of the key elements of the ‘debate’ and argued them well.
One of the points that really bothered me about Luke’s post was how he bought up the fact that he can walk away from being a minority. Outside the quilt world, he can have all the white, male priviledge he can handle. He can turn his so called discrimination on and off. Well, guess what, I can’t do that. My being a woman follows me EVERYWHERE, as does a hispanic person’s skin colour or someone who is in a wheel chair. We face discrimination at every turn and he is not actually facing discrimination, but an ADVANTAGE. Lets be clear on that.
So, yeah, that did really piss me off.
The comments on some of the other posts are horrible. That needs to stop immediately everybody!
Thank you! And yes… that hateful stuff is.. HATEFUL. Luke enjoys and employs a privilege we seldom get. Mind you, the only time I think being a guy might be interesting when I have to pee outside in the wilderness when it’s cold. I don’t want their lives, I just want equal advantages 🙂
Sam – well written and you make some excellent points. Although I’m not in total agreement with all of them, like I said, well written.
Women have come a long way over the last few decades but in the last couple of years, unfortunately, I wonder if they haven’t had to take several steps back. Earning salaries that are 75% of a man’s pay is despicable. Equally as bad is when women have little or no say in the legislation of their health issues – the list goes on. Misogyny is running rampant and needs to stop.
But why do gender issues have to creep into the world of quilting? Yes, a handful of men have made successful careers in the field of quilting, but they are few and far in between. As you mentioned, they are novelties in a female dominated field. There are many areas where men have dominated and successful women in these areas have received significant attention. (You mentioned car racing.) Simple fact of life, it happens.
While I have mixed feelings about a show that restricts entry to a single gender, there are so few men in quilting that an event that showcases the accomplishments of men in quilting is quite exciting. While the title “No Girls Allowed” can be found offensive to some, it is clearly meant to be tongue in cheek. As long as women continue to go to “the little girls room” and occasionally have a “girls night out” is the use if the word girl in reference to adult women all that bad? Unfortunately even if the show had a different name, there would be people who would take issue with it (as a single gender show).
I’ve been quilting for over 20 years now. In quilt shops and class rooms I have heard it all. There have even comments I have found offensive but I have essentially written them off and continued to enjoy quilting. The quilting sandbox is huge with plenty of room for all of us to play. Let’s keep the gender battles out of it and focus on having fun. Let’s continue to fight those battles in the workplace and in society where winning the equality battles can make a real difference in our lives.
If you think women’s equality issues are challenging, try living life as a gay man. Try living in the constant fear of losing your job, facing housing discrimination or loving someone for over 30 years before being able to marry them. It’s not pleasant. So, I totally understand what you are going through as a women. I have empathy.
Now, let’s get back to quilting and let’s keep quilting fun.
Jim – thank you for writing. And I appreciate you shedding light on your experiences as a gay man. I would like for this all to be less tough for everyone. Yes, let’s get back to quilting, but sweeping any of this under the rug silences the people that have the most to lose. I think we can make work and keep discussing 🙂
In truth, when the Supreme Court struck down opposition to gay marriage I was thrilled, and not a little bit wistful as I thought, “gee, I hope this means the Equal Rights Amendment will be passed sometime soon.”
Ain’t that the truth!
I generally don’t like to play the ‘gay man’ card, but I did here so I can express that I genuinely have empathy with equality issues and say it with some credibility.
An ERA would be wonderful – but even if it comes tomorrow, it won’t be soon enough. We have come a long way but still have so far to go.
There is no “gay card”, just like there’s no “race card” or “gender card” or, “xyz card”. A spade is a spade, and discrimination is discrimination regardless. Not having the right to marry, or legally see your partner in a hospital, or receive their benefits upon death is bullshit. Damn, maybe I need to get get my “Vote No” t-shirt on again, and remember that THAT fight was won here in Minnesota. 🙂
Thank you Stephanie! where’s the “like” button so I can press it now!
Sam – After reading some of the other blogs that you reference in the beginning of your essay, I may be a bit naive to think that quilting could (or should) be gender free. Some of the excerpts on the history of quilting were eye openers.
I will say this though, I rather enjoy that quilting is female dominated. I feel that if it were male dominated it would morph from an art form with some competition to a competition with some artistic elements. As a male quilter, my objective is to learn the art form from the talented women that I have had the pleasure to know through the art form. I have no intention of playing the ‘male’ card for my advancement. I would prefer to do it completely as a hobby for pleasure.
If a man in quilting succeeds on his artistic merit that is terrific. If he “succeeds” based on his gender then he didn’t succeed, rather, he failed.
But I’d still like to see it without gender issues.
The problem is, that women generally aren’t afforded the choice to have a genderless approach/privilege in pretty much anything. It’s a pervasive issue in our day to day activities of just going through life. I am completely open and welcoming to men into this industry, but it is upsetting when all articles about quilters who happen to be men, are titled “Man Quilter etc….” They aren’t announcing themselves as hey, I’m a quilter. The message comes across, “This is a male quilter, so listen up, this subject is now important, take notice!” When do you ever see an article called “Female Quilters Break From Tradition, Redefine Craft” (Replace Female with Male and that was an article about Luke) or “Chicks Who Make Quilts (LA Weekly, “Dudes Who Make Quilts”? The real matter is that these guys are getting legitimizing press that we women can not readily get, and seemingly are content that it’s because of the “guy factor”. So, to wish it to be gender-less, you’d need to do away with this very genderizing (not sure that’s a word) that the men are accepting when they put themselves in a piece about gender (and pieces to elude that quilting wasn’t a legitimate career or wasn’t “edgy” before men came in and made it that way. :/ We women would like it, probably even more than you, if in fact it was genderless! 🙂
As a Christian woman and quilter that side of your conversation I find unfounded. If you carefully read the constitution you might find out all citizens have equal rights without any added amendments. I was always paid the same as others with the same amount of education, there was not difference whether make or female. Personally I have more freedom by not demanding rights I don’t have without my faith and beliefs. The only true freedom you will experience is in Jesus. As far as being paid for quilting, I determine my price depending on who is asking. I use some of earned money to help others like crisis pregnancy centers. I have done many knitted blankets for missionary projects many of which were taken to Alabama and Missiopi after hurricane Kateina and some have been taken to An African nation our church is helping with water projects. If you are in an industry that is not giving equal pay then stand up to them and show them you are indispensable to them or build your own business. What I have learned through research is that many businesses and many senators who proclaim equal pay don’t do it themselves, so make sure you vote for those who truly do support it. I get tired of those who continually use the being a woman excuse. Didn’t intend to get on a tyraid but just felt this side needed to be expressed. I am a woman, a mother a grandmother, a sister and daughter as well as being a wife. I proudly use the title Mrs. Which I have earned as much as my college degree. I do not believe in the feminism movement as it doesn’t support my viewpoints at all. Until they can support all women’s viewpoints I will not praise them. Actually my college friends who followed that movement chastised me for wanting to stay home with my boys when they were born. I think it was important to do that and it was my choice to do that. As far as men quilting, I would say if they have an interest and the skills why not let them into the club. After all, Rosie Greer does needlepoint.
“I was always paid the same as others with the same amount of education, there was not difference whether make or female.” This is either true and you’re more fortunate than most, or you simply don’t know that you were paid less. As an investment manager with two graduate degrees and the highest professional accreditation, I was always paid less than my male peers, regardless of their educational accomplishments. Could I “stand up to them and show them you are indispensable to them or build your own business”? Where do you think I would go after standing up to them? Other businesses in my industry were much the same, and to leave my own company for another would have meant disrupting my family’s circumstances, including my husband’s career. It is still TRUE that women on average make less than men, even when accounting for education and experience. That is still TRUE regardless of whether a woman calls herself a Christian, a feminist, or any other label she wants to apply.
Hi Martha – thanks for writing to express your view. First up – I concur with Melanie’s comments above… if you were paid equally, it is a rare thing. At one point in my life I supervised men, who I found out were paid more than me, and I had to endure that to keep the roof over my son’s head. It sounds like you’ve had the benefit of some lovely privilege in the form of good pay, or at least a husband with good pay. You were certainly lucky to have the choice to stay home to raise your children – this is not a choice many women can make financially. I would argue that any form of faith in a religion does not give you freedom – rather, most of them are full of rules (decent ones, mind you) but I find their structure restricting and even hostile to women. I was happy to be called Mrs. when I was married, and I don’t find that in any way contrary to what I believe my rights as a woman should be. But as I said… keep talking. We need all view points here.
Amen! 🙂
thank you Latifah!
[…] The Gender Discussion Hunter’s Design Studio (17 Jan 2016) […]
Stephanie – well stated.
Unfortunately, as long as there are so few men in the art form this is going to continue to happen. Men in quilting continue to be a novelty – thus, it’s a “big deal”. My partner and I started to enjoy quilting by attending quilt shows in the late 80s. We weren’t quilters then, we just enjoyed looking at them and learning about them. We used to go to the Mennonite quilt auctions in southern Pennsylvania and every time it was announced that a quilt that was on the auction was made by a man there was a heightened interest in it and the prices increased (even if the quilt was ugly). So wrong.
If more men enter the art form and it becomes less of a novelty then I think this kind of thing will diminish. The media tends to favor the unusual – that’s what sells.
I think as long as men are such a small minority in quilting this will continue. I think it’s unfortunate because so many women who are incredibly talented have to fight for recognition – while men just happen to come along and they don’t have to fight that battle. Again, so wrong.
The hardest part, is the huge pushback when we bring it up, and are then told “No, that privilege doesn’t exist”. Yes, there are fewer men in the industry, but when your success can be directly driven by the ability to easily (or even fairly) get press and notice, it puts men back into the majority camp with privileges. Just because women are the majority here, does not mean we experience privilege. I want to thank you for openly joining this conversation, and taking the time to see the depth of the issue.
Again – well stated. These discussions have been a real eye opener for me. I will certainly be more sensitive to the issue in the future. Thank you!
Once, when I was just a year or two out of college, a guy I was dating lived in a large house with several other current and former students, male and female. One day, he told me one of the women who lived there had decided to move out because she did not feel safe walking to and from campus at night. He thought she was being ridiculous. *He* had never felt unsafe on those same streets, so why should she? And all she had to do, he said, was keep her eyes open and walk with confidence, and she’d be fine – just like him.
This is so often what happens when women speak up about what battles we fight on a daily basis. You can count on a certain number of men to roll their eyes, sigh, and proclaim, “I can’t believe I have to explain this to you AGAIN.” And we are expected to sit still for a lecture that will somehow clear our muddled thinking. However, the counterarguments often amount to no more than, “If you were truly feminist you would know that gender shouldn’t matter, and besides, I got to where I am on talent and hard work alone.” (You can also count on a certain number of women to state they have never experienced sexism in any form and we must all just be, again, not working hard enough.) Thus, the entire conversation becomes nothing more than, “Your experience is subjective and wrong but my experience is rational and is therefore truth.”
Sam, you have done this conversation a wonderful service by demonstrating that we must be able to discuss these topics beyond what makes us comfortable/uncomfortable, and beyond mere anecdote and personal experience. We need to listen to what people on all sides are trying to say, and we need to be willing to consider that we, as individuals and collectively, may occasionally be wrong. And while the topic can be an emotionally fraught one, we need to be willing to take the time to make reasoned arguments for our positions that amount to more than just “whatever I do/have experienced must be the norm.” Because while it may happen that one’s experience does represent the norm, it doesn’t follow that it must.
” You can count on a certain number of men to roll their eyes, sigh, and proclaim, “I can’t believe I have to explain this to you AGAIN.” And we are expected to sit still for a lecture that will somehow clear our muddled thinking. ” mansplaining at it’s finest.
Isn’t it just???
OMG – talk about a mic drop! “Because while it may happen that one’s experience does represent the norm, it doesn’t follow that it must.”
I think that in some ways men don’t realize that for millenia they have always had outlets that were just for them. Women not so much. Anything women scraped out of society for themselves was not because of men but in spite of them. Now decades after we supposedly stopped being property of first our fathers and then our husbands we are still looking around wondering why and how we can still be viewed as ‘less than’. I don’t want to hear anything about how far we’ve come. I still don’t make as much as men in my position. I still know that at any moment a bunch of old, white men are actively trying to take away my right to decide what happens INSIDE of my own body. I know that should I make certain decisions I will have no say over what/when outside objects are to be inserted inside of my body as punishment for making a decision. There is zero way that it isn’t punishment. Zero. This is a small fraction of the types of things women live, day in and day out, knowing about their existence. We still are not given the benefit of being equal, autonomous beings with the same opportunity as half of the population of the planet.
When I live with the knowledge of those things and when I have to teach my daughter that she is actually worth more than society sees fit to acknowledge the fact that a man gets a side eye at a quilt shop really doesn’t even register. And when someone uses the novelty of being male in this community to leverage profit and exposure while simultaneously deriding the fact that he is simply being asked about his experience of being the minority gender, I could spit nails.
Of course, I know that many wonderful men belong to this community and I wouldn’t want it any other way but that kind of complaint smacks of asking women to make it ok for you somehow by ignoring that you occupy a role in one area that we occupy every second of every minute of every hour of every day of our entire lives. I say Men, quilt away. Sew the hell out of all the things. I will to. What I won’t do and can’t do is make it ok for you. I’m still working on making my entire society ok for me.
And another mic drop: “I’m still working on making my entire society ok for me.” Thank you!
Hi Sam!
Enjoyed our visit. It’s great to talk in person rather than volleying ideas around online. Intent can easily be misread when dancing around things that simply cannot be discussed publicly. Thank you, and thank you again for the blog.
Stephanie Forsyth and I are friends on Facebook and spent a lot of time chatting over the last couple days. In a more candid space, we agreed on a lot of things. We also learned from each other.
I admire her for being outspoken. Advocacy comes from that. Advocacy also occurs privately, and there are many reasons why it is not for public consumption. What happens behind the scenes is influential and productive in ways the public cannot possibly grasp. If it seems like someone is not acting, the opposite may be true.
Regarding privilege, I asked a Buddhist friend, who said,
“There are many forms of privilege, present in the broad spectrum of individuals. We only see it in others, never ourselves. If we have time to sew, we have time to sew.”
[…] response by Hunter’s Design Studio/Sam […]
[…] Sam, who makes her living creating quilt designs and phenomenal quilts, shares her thoughts about “The Gender Discussion” where it concerns the quilting industry. Toku was surprised to learn that there are male quilters […]
Just a quick note to say that the ERA is not dead!
http://Www.equalrightsamendment.org provides info about how you can help–especially if you live in a state that has not ratified it.
(I will go back to the quilting part of your post shortly.)
Thank you Nann! Happy to see I live in a state that is on board!